Yippie Versus Yuppie Debate at Red Deer College on March 8, 1985

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOFBAJ8BlJs

Introducer: Few people symbolize the changes that the Youth of America have gone through over the last 20 years. Better than Jerry Rubin. Jerry Ryan grew up in Cincinnati. OH, the son of a teamster official. He worked as a newspaper man and then went on to gain national fame in the 1960s. By challenging the government, organizing young people, leading demonstrations, going to jail, writing a best selling book and creating guerrilla theater against the war in Vietnam and inequality. In America. In the 1970s, Jerry Rubin went on an inward journey to find himself and studied eastern philosophy, yoga therapy and psychological awareness as he became a national spokesperson for the so-called Me generation of the 1960s. In 1980, Jerry Rubin became an entrepreneur and one of America's most well known new age businessmen. After shocking his former comrades by becoming a Venturer banker on wall. Street. Ruben pioneered the concept of business networking and launched his own business, networking, which created another movement across the country. The word yucky. Was named after Jerry Rubin. Rubin also created the net working party, which according to Newsweek magazine in its December 1984 issue called the Unique Yuppie contribution to American Culture. Jerry Rubin is an innovator, A trendsetter, a pioneer. He founded the Yippies the Wild.

Alright, activists of the 1960s, along with Abby Hoffman. And in the 1980s founded the yuppies, those young urban professionals that everybody seems to be talking about. To listen to Jerry Rubin is to see where America and maybe Canada is going in the future. Moderator tonight for the debate will be bill studying from our sociology department. And assisting him and also keeping score of the time will be Doug Auer from our business department. I'll now turn the program over to our moderator.

Moderator: Thanks, Ed. Just before we begin, I'd like to explain some of the rules. For the great debater, as one of my erstwhile colleagues called it the yuppie yuppie yuppie. Each speaker will have 25 minutes to make an opening statement and a rebuttal. They may use or split the 25 minutes however they please, following the opening statements and the rebuttal. We will then entertain approximately one hour of questions and answers from the audience.

For the questions, the questions may be directed to either of the two speakers, but the other speaker will also have the opportunity to respond if he pleases the answers to the question part of the evening will be limited to 2 1/2 minutes at the end of. Which Doug, you will tap the bell and gentlemen, you're finished. Either not. Let's have fun. The speaking order was determined earlier this evening, and Mr. Rubin will begin.

Jerry: You may remember. The 60s I LED thousands of young people in the streets and presidents fighting wars quivered at the sound of my name. I was known and not wanted in many States and countries, including Canada. I was the subject of hundreds of thousands of arguments around the dinner table between parents and their children. Then in the 70s I took off my beard and no one recognized me anymore. So now I never leave home without my American Express card. Now you do know, don't you? That's a joke, right? Although there's nothing wrong. With having a credit card with your for capitalism or against capitalism, I didn't get a credit card to the mid seven days and I was living with a woman at the time where we kept using her credit card and I realized that I wasn't really avoiding capitalistic advantage. Was just taking advantage of her credit. Cards anyway, tonight's a debate between the. Past and the. Feature. Debate between nostalgia and the 1990s mid 1980s. How do you know if you're a yippie or yippie? Well, when you hear the initials IRA, what do you think of? If you think of the Irish Republican Army? Then you're yippee. If you think of a individual retirement account, then you're thinking of your future and you're a yuppie. Basically I have a message tonight that may be new to some of you. And it's that the people that were active in. The 1960s. Went through internal changes in the 1970s and in the 1980s are in the process of taking over America North America. When I say America, I mean Canada and America. I think the changes that are going on inside the United States are also going on inside Canada. And to those people who say that because we put on a tie or changed our dress a little bit, we've sold out. I say that's absurd. We're taking over. The strategy of this generation. Is to basically transform America and Canada through entrepreneurial capitalism. And I know in the 60s we were against capitalism. We were against big business. But I think that one thing we've learned is that the alternative to capitalism. Doesn't really allow much freedom, and that we're in the process of transforming capitalism from big business to entrepreneurship. And one of the differences between the two debaters tonight is I'm going to tell you exactly who is going to change society over the next few years and decades, and that is. The baby boom generation. Those 75,000,000 Americans born after World War 2. Who did so much? So many things positive. In the 60s. Don't listen to what my debating opponent says about my views about the 60s. I'm very positive of what happened in the 60s. If I had to do it again, I would do it pretty much the same way. We drove 2 American presidents out of office, Johnson and Nixon. We stopped the United States from waging the continuing the war in Vietnam. We ended the war. We're there and we transform this country, that country, in many, many ways. However, in the early 70s, we realized that the tactics of the 60s were no longer appropriate for the 70s and for the 80s. And we made an even more important realization. And that is we're the majority in the United States, we will control. The election in 1988. Why define ourselves as protesters as outsiders, as rebels protesting the policies of the people in power, when we can become the people in power? But if they come to us in the 1960s and said, OK, you guys, you run the country, we want to know what to do. And so in the 1970s. That generation began to learn how to run America. And in addition, in the 70s, we realized that unless we changed ourselves, we could not change anything else. In the 60s, the men were macho and dominated women. We didn't care about health. We need the drugs and not health. And in the 70s, we got into our own health. We've changed the whole medical revolution in this country where? Now people are. Taking responsibility for their. Health and not looking to doctors or the medical establishment to be responsible for your health. And the relationships between men and women have changed. Where men became more sensitive and women got in touch and then sense with their own power. Women, especially from the young professionals, have set a new model of what it's like to be female. Yes women have made a historic decision in the in the mid 70s that they are going to be responsible for their own economic independence and that has transformed the family. It's transformed male female relationships and it's transforming the economy and in.

Moderator: Addition to this.

Jerry: In the 60s you had 6070 thousand businesses started every year. In the 1980s, six, 100 and 700,000 new businesses are started every year, and who is starting these businesses? It's the young, urban professionals, the yuppies, the baby boom generation. That challenged the government. The 60s changed themselves in the 70s and the 1980s are transforming the economic system, and the younger professionals are the most active people and the transformation of North America from an industrial country. To an information country, knowledge about technology changes every four years double s every four years. Knowledge and electronics Computerization America is becoming an in the information capital of the world, and it's being done by younger professionals. Now in the last election in the 1984 election, neither Republican Party nor the Democratic Party spoke at all to this generation. Although my debating opponent hears the word, entrepreneurship and all he can think of is Ronald Reagan, I want to make very clear that Ronald Reagan is not a friend of the entrepreneur. Ronald Reagan is an old fashioned imperialist Ronald Reagan's image of the world is from the 19th century, is still a cowboy in the White House. He does not in any sense. Any analysis of Ronald Reagan economically indicates that he does not support entrepreneurship. He only supports the privileges of the of the rich and of the big corporate elite. He is not no way expresses any of the values that I'm talking about. The only problem is what do the Democrats do? They nominated Walter Mondale. Although I voted for Mondale, I felt that Mondale was a mistake because Mondale represents the 1930s. The old idea of big government handing out handouts and creating big government, and then people dependent on government, Mondale, represented in the 1960s again. And he did not represent the future. Had the Democratic Party nominated. Gary Hart, who was the 1st. Baby boom candidate for president. You would have seen a very close election in 1988. A yuppie oriented, a baby boom oriented candidate will be elected president of the United States and will be the first post World War 2 candidate to represent. A new generation. And this and this candidate, this candidate rather, have as a social base, those same people that were active and were part of the 60s constituency that Abby Hoffman and I represented, and then that candidate male, female, Democrat, Republican, most likely Democrat, will begin to implement the. Changes. That we fought for and struggled for in the 1960s. I respect Abby Hoffman as an activist, but it saddens me that he has isolated himself from the very generation that he was active with in the 1960s. We learned something in the 60s and one thing we learned is you look to the future. We don't stay stuck in the past and we moved on and we are all over this country now and every single part of the society amassing power. A simple example. It was rock stars. In the 1960s, that pioneered some of the lifestyle changes that eventually became a mass movement. And just recently we've seen rock stars in Canada, Rock Stars in England, and rock stars in the United States who show that they're going to take their collective power, their financial power and address themselves. To a social problem like the problem in Ethiopia and use money and whatever influence they can to make these changes and you can point to those people and say, look how rich they are, look how many consumer goods they have, look at their houses, look at their cars. So what? You can be wealthy and still care about changing the world as a. Matter of fact. It's OK to be successful. We were against success in the 60s. We're 4 success in the 80s. The only difference is now we're going to combine success with a social conscience. It is an absolute error and is perpetuated by my debating opponent to say that the moment you become successful the moment you become wealthy, you've gotta become a heartless Republican. You can be successful and still want to eliminate poverty and successful and still want to eliminate nuclear war. There's a tremendous thing about to happen in this North America where that generation that was isolated in the 60s from power but took power through its own hands. As self-reliant generation, which was quiet in the 70s as it worked on itself and as all of a sudden. Reappeared in the 80s. This is about to take power in this country and address itself to the issues of poverty, war and continue on the issues of social concerns. So when they write the history of the past decades, they're going to say in the 60s they fought and in the 80s and 90s they implemented what they fought for in the 60s. Thank you very much.

Moderator: 11 minutes. Mr. Hoffman will now make his opening.

Abbie: Wow. Statement that was that was much more of an activist speech than Jerry gives in the USA. And what happened first? I I want to apologize to all the people who organized this for two weeks ago wasn't their fault. That it didn't happen. It was my fault. I came down with a very bad illness that was, of course, given to me by the CIA (laughs). No, actually I was afraid to come here because the last time I spoke in Alberta, Alberta was in Edmonton and Calgary in 1971 and the Canadian government threw me out of Canada and would never allow me back. I must have said something right, I guess.

Anyway, first of all, I'm not here to resurrect the politics of sex drugs, rock'n'roll, freaky clothes and long hair. That was a fad. And that fad is over. But I am interested in continuing, continuing a politics built around activism on issues like social justice. Poverty. Environmental. Use of control of nuclear arms and especially against US intervention in Central America. I don't believe that we invented the cry of freedom, peace and justice in the 1960s. I know we certainly didn't write its last chapter. I'm doing these debates to attack the mythology that all of us will politically active in that era. Eventually became disillusioned, self-centered and concerned only with the accumulation of wealth. I know more than anybody. This is not the 1960s we live now in the era of designer brains, but not all of us who are active rushed to embrace that materialistic lifestyle with the gusto of my debating opponent for the last seven years, I've been involved in the environmental movement. I have founded 4 organizations and assisted. As a consultant, three others in Western Massachusetts, we were successful in getting a statewide anti toxic waste dumping ban. The best that exists in the United States. We formed an organization called the Great Lakes United 150 membership groups, both in Canada the unit. States the first time in history such an organization has been formed with that kind of totality to protect the water quality of the once Great Lakes, the largest body of fresh water in the world. In my home region, where I live on the Saint Lawrence River and the Thousand Islands founded, Save the river and we fought the Army Corps of Engineers. One of the most powerful forces in the United States. We fought them when they wanted a $20 billion boondoggle make a year round barge canal out of the Great Lakes and the Saint Lawrence region. That organization is still there. 3000 members, and it's expanding into a whole bunch of. Especially acid rain. We were instrumental in being the vanguard in the fight against acid rain and because of our efforts on the grassroots level, New York State is the only state in the Union that has an acid rain control bill. It's exactly similar to the one that Canada has just enacted as a nation that didn't come. From looking way out there, it came from work. Hard work on the grassroots level on the Delaware River. We fought a utility company and it's planned to put in a nuclear plant. We were successful in that in New York City fighting the transportation of high level spent nuclear. Rules, but the most dangerous cargo owner through New York's busy streets, we're not winning all the battles in the environmental movement, but we're winning enough and I felt this year knowing what I do about Vietnam, seeing it come back again, having spent three years when I was a fugitive in Central American. Mexico that I have responsibility to go. Out and sound. The alarm that was coming back again, I've made two trips down to Nicaragua. I've brought 70 people, opinion makers, elected officials, journalists, students down to Nicaragua to see the campaign of misinformation that's being carried on in the media and developed that sense of outrage that kindled us. Throughout those long years fighting the Vietnam War, I'll be doing it the same. This summer. Canadians are welcome to join me after the question and answer period. I'll tell you how to get to Nicaragua. It's just down there, just down the road anyways, but my story is not alone. There were choices to be made. There were balances to be struck, obviously get more. Mellow with middle. Age. You see the peaks and valleys of of activism and you gear in for the long haul. But not all the choices have gone the way of the big chill mythology. After all, the nuclear freeze movement is just the anti war movement. Cycle and the people that invented Earth Day in the 1960s are still at the center of the environmental movement. It's the same with the women's movement and civil rights. The activism of today is being carried on by the activists of my generation. It's not a question of what happened to our Woodstock nation. It's a question of where is the Woodstock nation for this generation? Where is the younger people? When it comes to social change, the campuses have become hotbeds of social rest, about as exciting as hospital food or watching television. Bowl at the. If there's any impression I want to convey is that there's a lot more to young people, it's that there's a lot more going on in life than pursuing trivia, watching soap operas all day and throwing up your sweatshirt after a hockey game up in Edmonton. There's a world going on out there and it's a world with a lot of problems. If not, the rosy colored Dawn Jerry Rubin sees when he jogs through life on Manhattan's Upper East Side. His world has become very narrow, as narrow as his tie. It's 20 blocks of high rise building. Armies of uniformed doormen. Women's rights? Yeah, but not for our Haitian maids. It's the Hamptons in the summer. It's the life advertised. It's the life advertised in the slick magazines. Listen carefully to what he says. These young urban professionals. These so-called yuppies are going to. Run the world. And war and poverty and environmental abuse and all look nasty things that we don't like are all going to disappear because they wish it to. And after the yuppies become rich, the money, they're just going to give away their money because they're naturally generous and benevolent and equality, justice. These things later on, let's wait till the next election. It's going to all take place in 1990 or 18 somewhere down the road, but not now. Don't ask me. I'm too busy. I'm busy now. Getting my hunk of the pie and it's a big hunk at that. You should hear Jerry talk about the pursuit of money as a Zen experience. We have to close down all the boundaries around you and just pursue the dollar with Gustin zeal. Now I call that elitist. I call that position completely undemocratic. The idea that we ought to be divided as a society. And to professionals and non professionals is undemocratic and I believe in democracy with a passion. But it's more than something that you believe in. It's something that you have to go out and do. We are very complacent because we live in Canada, the United States. We live in democracies. Democracy is not a place you live in. It is something that you learn how to do, and then you go out and do it. If you don't learn it and you don't do it, you don't have it. It doesn't matter if you live in Canada, the United States or Russia. Or South Africa or El Salvador. If you internalize the idea that there's nothing but apathy. Around you that you can't fight the powers that be that you can't take on the power structures that you can't fight City Hall. Then you've internalized the concept that of a police state and you in fact then live in a police state. Democracy demands dissent to be true itself. We should teach education as a subversive act, not as a matter of complacency. Why? Because the status quo, the old boy network sits on society like fat on cold chicken soup. So you need dissenters to come along and stir things up to make change. That's how change comes about. It clearly doesn't come from conformists who flock to the latest fashion. I'm anti fashion. I urge you to be anti fashion. Look it up in the dictionary. The word fashion is right next to the word fascist because the. Same the same case. There's a small elite group telling you what to spray and your arms what to eat, what to drive around it, and eventually then what to see, what to what, to what to think. I'll concede fashion gladly to my opponent. Change comes not from the conformists. It doesn't come from the majority it comes. From the moral minority that decides when they're going to push for the change and it seeks to add. Us the needs of all the people, not just the people that you see in People magazine, power to the people was a populist slogan in the 1960s. It's always been a popular slogan if you believe in the democratic process. Democratic process is participatory. It's not electing representatives. That go off to some distant land and make a distant decision. In a vacuum, it's a constant stream of participation. My opponent likes to portray this as me as Mr. outside and his him as Mr. outside. Inside the system. I don't see that going on at all. I think the indifference to social change demonstrated by the yuppies when they switched so easily from a Gary Hart to a Ronald Reagan. Because he acts like a president because they looked mean, they looked up, they looked good on the covers of the swift magazines, shows the apathy and the indifference on social. News by the so-called yuppies. This is a debate about doing something and about doing nothing, Jerry says. I would get involved if there was a crisis. He. Doesn't see any. Crisis out there because he chooses not to see a crisis. Ask him what he's doing in his business networking salons, where executives exchange business cards to make better deals. Are they trying to make a? A better world for all of us? No. They're trying to make a bigger hunk of of a buck for themselves. You won't hear concrete proposals. You won't hear any strategies. All you will hear is a description of a process of technical evolution and a social. Phenomenon. The nouveau. Does he come to Canada? And does he tell you Canada? Watch out for what Washington is doing. Does he discuss US Canadian relationships? No, he just. I'll tell you what Washington is doing to Canada, what it's doing to Nicaragua if it can't skin you one way it's going to skunk you another way, Washington. It's stealing. It's stealing Canadian water with the with the Garrison Water Diversion project. There's a similar project on the books to the Army Corps of Engineers to do the same with the Great Lakes. It's stealing fish in both oceans. It's plundering the workforce in Canada, it's using Alberta as a as a as a missile testing ground. For cruise missiles, as you know, as a practice range, it's polluting the air. Acid Rain Ronald Reagan goes to Canada. Does he talk about that problem? No. What does he do? He takes the opportunity to cuss out the Russians one more time and then he and Mal Goonie there are going to appoint another Commission to study acid rain. Well then there are. Then there have been no less than five federal commissions in the last five years that have studied the problem of aspiring they've all come to the same conclusion. It comes from the smokestacks in the Midwest of the United States. Canada has taken the first step to do clean up its own yacht, and I applaud. Canada for doing that now they gotta play hardball. They gotta take off the gloves and stop being so, buddy buddy with their neighbors to the South. And they have to sue the United. States and the. World for it in Geneva. My opponent doesn't look for this. He comes up with startling revelations that money is power. I mean, anybody that has some Canadian dollars knows, knows the power of the dollar down there. He says that. High technology has the big future. No kidding. That the baby boom is the growing up. Obviously they're growing up. The most startling conclusion is the idea, the very concept that the old rich are going to die off and the new rich are going to take their place and we're all going. You're better off because of this process. To me, it sounds like George Orwell's Animal Farm. Remember that. I mean, the pee people elected the pigs to represent them. A good night. Good. Yeah, the pigs. And they went inside the farmer's house, and they were speaking the farmyard farmer's language. And they were learning how to dance on 2 feet and the rest of the. Barnyard animals were stuck in the mud. Outside. That's what the whole concept of the yuppies, the unknown professionals running the world from the top down, sounds to me, Jerry paints a very optimistic upbeat. Picture if you ever read USA TODAY, it's a lot like Jerry colorful, you know, short, sweet, upbeat, cheery. The weather's always good, everything's going great and everything, but very shallow on content. Obviously some people are doing better down there in the United States where we don't have 11. What is it? 12% unemployment in this province. Doing better. Down there. But compared to a generator, they're doing better than two or three years ago, but they're not doing better than a generation ago. There's a bigger gap between rich and poor than there was a generation ago, a bigger gap in the earning capacities of black and white women are still making half as much money for the as men for the same amount of work we have twice the percent of unemployment. You know that we had in the 60s and what's worse, the people become accustomed to it. 7 1/2% unemployment, eight, 910% unemployment. It's OK, you know, it's OK down there. It's accepted back in the 60s, three and a half, 4% unemployment was considered high even. The yuppies themselves are a myth. Many people out of the whole 75,000,000 baby boomers that Jerry names, he equates it to how many people can achieve the lifestyle of young urban professionals with the porches, the Rolexes, etcetera, etcetera. It's always going to be a small minority. The baby boom generation as a whole cannot afford to buy the homes that his parents. Living in today and that's a fact that entrepreneurs, sure, 200,000 small farmers went out of business last year in the United States because of the because of Ronald Reagan. That's not encouraging entrepreneurship. I'm not against entrepreneurship. I love the idea. I love the people that invented Trivial Pursuit and all the new forms. Of entrepreneurship that had gone on Apple computer Band-Aid, whatever it is, there's obviously a virtue to self-reliance. But the concept of entrepreneurship does not address the needs of those less fortunate. You can't say to a black woman living in Harlem with 10. Kids and no education go out and invent Apple computer. You can't say it to a farmer whose family has been in business for a century, and the government just pulled the rug out from under him. You can't say it to an unemployed steel worker. These are not. There is no solution to the problem. I'm not afraid of big government. I'm not afraid of the size of government. I am concerned about the quality of life the government provides and not just for its most fortunate citizens, but for its least fortunate. Ronald Reagan and George Bush will spot the same Horatio Alger stories about striking it big that Jerry Rubin does, and that's why I compare them. Ultimately, the yuppie attitude lacks basic compassion for those that can't get in on the big deal. And that's why the minority and the group and and minority groups and the poor rejected Gary. Terry Heights candidacy Jerry's philosophy does not explain dollar diplomacy. It doesn't explain how US cap is US capital capital here in Canada to promote entrepreneurship. Or is it here to extend the corporate empire of the United States? You ask yourself that question. The current arms talks are a PR stunt dreamed up by Ronald Reagan's cabinet. He has absolutely no commitment to the idea of nuclear weapons. You do not reduce nuclear weapons by adding more annexes, by dreaming of style. Technology you reduce. Their weapons by reducing if you are sincere, you don't make peace in Central America by carrying on policies of economic destabilization in terror, you make peace by negotiations. That's how you make peace. Ronald Reagan wants to overthrow the government of Nicaragua. I've been saying that for a year and a half. Two weeks ago he said it. He wants them. To cry uncle, he wants to change the government of Nicaragua. That's what our purpose is. And if he can't do it through the present policy, he'll do it through sending in U.S. troops by the hundreds of thousands. The way they were sent into Vietnam and the way they were sent into Central America 17 or 18 times in our country's history. It's in your interests. I don't want to see the draft Dodgers come out up here. You don't want to be caught in the blank. It's in the interest of self. Canada to stand up tall and proud as a nation, to follow the lead of New Zealand, which has the guts to stand up to Washington. In it to be active today than radioactive tomorrow. Better to fight for clean air and clean water. Is that a solution? Drinking Perry air than $1.29 a bottle? Or is it better to go out and fight for clean water? And better to help us join us. Join US, Canada should stand up and say what's on its mind. We do not approve of Washington's policy in Central America, Venezuela saying and Argentina is saying, and Brazil is saying and Mexico is saying it. Western Europe is saying it and Canada ought to say it. Frankly, I thought Trudeau. Was a great man. He was respected more. He was respected more around the world than he was in Canada, unfortunately, and you got Brian Mahogony and you're going to have him for a while and with him you get Ronald Reagan. History is not made by those who sit on their *****. History is made by those who actively participate. Day by day, I urge you to become active, go out and make tomorrow better than today. Better than we tried to make it yesterday. Thanks for. Bringing me to Alberta.

Moderator: Mr. Rubin has 14 minutes for a rebuttal.

Jerry: OK, let's try to examine what Abby Hoffman just said. The first point that underlies a lot of what he's saying is something I think you can decide right here. And that is, he said, that the baby boom generation. Is still has its shoulder to the wheel and he defines shoulder to the wheel. Is thinking like him and acting like him. Now you know people in their 30s and 40s, late 20s, you've been around the last 10 years. Ask yourself that question. I'm not asking whether you like it or not. Let's put that aside for a moment. Whether you think it's a good thing. Or a bad thing, but just factually, because we just got. Do you want to change the country? You gotta start with realism. I think Abby is out of touch. Reality, I'll tell you. Tell you why, as I go on. But the first point is there's just no doubt about the fact that millions of people in the 1960s that were listening to Abby Hoffman and myself and were active like like we are not listening to him today. Many of them are in business. They're building families, they're working for corporations. This they're doing different things. Abby is just wrong when he says that he points to college students that are different. But the baby boom generation is just like they were in the 60s. It's false. It's nonsense. It's not true. And and you take that away, then we see what else it says. And then Abby says that idealism becomes cynical. Disillusionment, self-centered, and people interested in the accumulation of wealth, and he calls it a mythology that this has happened. It's a media mythology. It's Abby Hoffman that's cynical. It's Abby Hoffman. It's disillusioned. He's kept the cynicism and disillusionment of the 60s and perpetuated into the 1980s. Now look, I used to do the same thing he did just now in the 60s. And I could do it tonight if you want me to. It wouldn't get us anywhere for those people want to be radicals for a night, we'd have a good cheer. Where we going tomorrow and nothing would change about the society because I can tell you all that's wrong and go off all the bridges that need to be built in Canada. This in America, this and imperialism and this. And I can be angry and and set up. And by the way I'll. Play on your guilt. Make everybody feel responsible for all of us for not doing anything, and that's what we did in the 60s and I was I was as a great guilt tripper in the 60s and it does not work. It just doesn't work. And and and it. Gets effective lines because the buzz buzzwords, and when Abby and I go to colleges. The Radicals for day, they cheer. But what's it got to do with living your life? Absolutely nothing, unfortunately. Praying on guilt and cynicism. Wisdom. Is not the way we're going to change this country and what is and and can't? What is this debate about? Let's define what the debate about the debate is about. How are we going to change North America? What are the methods we're going to use and what are the tactics and how we're going to do it? That's what the debate is. About the debate. Is not about what we don't like. Is almost everything. Abby Hoffman criticized. I don't. Like either. So I'll go. I I said everything he said he didn't like. I agree. We all don't like those things. I don't like acid rain. Nuclear proliferation. The Contras in Central America. What do we do about it. That becomes the question and what really tears me up about Abby is here's the generation that he was active with in the 60s. This that is moving into positions of power. And what does he do? He ridicules them. The baby boomers are getting older. Big deal. You know the new rich, the old rich, big deal, in other words, then he was with them. Today he's standing outside and condemning them, stuck in the past, stuck in the positions of the past. Now I'm very happy. Very frankly, that the yuppies. Who listened to Abby in the 60s, no longer listened to them. Because I'll tell you one accomplishment they have achieved, and this is a fact, and that is the following. Jobs. Jobs in America, 80% of all the jobs over the past four years. In the United States were created by businesses under four years old. I we don't. Have a statistics on the age of the owners. Of those businesses. But businesses that are 4 years old and most of those businesses overwhelming number came from the information sector of the economy, not the industrial sector of the economy. You can bet that the people that have long hair in the 60s in the 80s are creating the businesses that are employing people, and there's only one solution to. Property. 4 letters JOPS. There is no other solution. Give people a sense of their own power, self-respect, education. And then a job and. Who is employing those people? People are going in and starting businesses and creating businesses and employing people, and that is the baby boom generation. I see a definite switch in history. Between the pre World War 2 mentality and the post World War 2 mentality, and by the way, we said don't trust anyone over 30 in the 60s, we are really not talking about the age 30 but talking about people who were born before World War 2 and had a World War 2 vision of the world. Built a vision of the world that saw communism as the as the absolute enemy that had to be abolished, that that has to the American military was the most important. Saviour on earth. That had a scarcity idea of the economy. There's a post World War 2 reality and it's happening right now. Abby says his story is not alone. Unfortunately, I'm glad Abby exists, but there aren't many people like Abby. And the question is, what about all those people that have gone into business? We just dismissed them. We make fun of them. We we say, were you rich? He says he. He satirizes me by saying he says that the new ranch are going to change things because they're going to come replace the old rich. Well, yes, I think that the growing up experiences of the people of the 60s are going to make them different kinds of people. If if they don't, if it doesn't, we have no hope. We'll be a permanent. Minority permanently angry permanently on the outside. The most effective way to change North America is not by complaining who's the Prime Minister, because we can do a lot of complaining about that or who's the President United States. We can complain about that. But by forming an alliance, forming a new ideology, a new vision, a new power base, and then putting our person. In the White House, and by the way, that is going to happen, and if not 1988, definitely 19/9. The two. Our person from the 60s will be in the White House and he will be someone who represents a new and a different value system. Now. Now, Maddie made a little comment about, you know, I made a statement about women that changes the way went through, and he dismissed that entire statement by pointing out that there are Haitian maids on the Upper East Side. Well and. I applaud it. So I take it that there's been no progress among for women in the past ten years that women are now not now becoming professionals and earning money and and adopting a new model and new myth about what it means to be female in the world that we don't have two income families that men don't look at women differently, but just because there exist Haitian maids all of a sudden there's no such thing as women. Fights. That's the way he debates. But the with the transformation between men and women over the past 10 years is not the final it's not complete. It's not perfect, but it is significant, and it is historic. And then he says, what do you say to a black woman in the ghetto with 10 kids? How do you tell her to go out? And become an entrepreneur. Ha ha. What about her? 1. What about her? Five year old son, maybe that five year old son can become an entrepreneur? What is the solution that five year old son, that solution, their five year old son, is the protest, protest protest or is it drugs? Or is it selling drugs? What is it you gotta give? Give people hope that there's something to be changed inside the system because most people? Or have the ability or satisfaction. To live outside the system. And the answer is going to be inside capitalism. I'm sorry, I don't think capitalism is going to be abolished in our lifetime. And by the way, one of the things that I've learned since the 60s is that the alternative, communism, socialism. I don't see much freedom there either. See, it's the United States, was the enemy in the 60s. And according her Abbey talked, it's the United States, the United States, United States. Well, I don't think the United States is the total repository of all evil in the world. I really don't. Maybe that makes me a pop in this room, but I, you know, I I don't. I don't see what Soviet Union is doing in Afghanistan to be so. Me, I don't see what Soviet Union is doing in Poland to be so pretty. I don't see what's happening in Lebanon, to be so pretty. I don't think the United States is so bad compared what's going on with us, doing a lot of changes must take place inside the United States. But the idea that all evil is in America. And no evil anywhere else. That is a mistake that's going to isolate people that want to change this country from the majority of the American people. We've gotta learn how to talk to Americans. And Americans know that not all evil exists from Washington. But there's evil elsewhere, too, and the United States must have a military because the Soviet Union has a military, and the two sides have got to disarm together through negotiations. But it's got to come from a generation that sincerely and absolutely believes in disarmament. I never said that we're going to run the that run the world. From the top. Down what I said is and give. Away our wealth, I. Didn't say that what I said is is that I believe that the baby boom generation is basically a consciousness generation. And if you look at its history. Story it's a history of expanding consciousness. And in the. 1980s the protesters, the consciousness explorers, have become entrepreneurs, and they're going to spread the adventure of entrepreneurship all over the country, not by giving wealth away, not by voluntarily becoming poor. That's utopian, idealistic, and it's not going to happen. And I'm not saying it's going. To happen but. What I am saying is that once. Yes. We have the White House, which is going to happen, and once the baby boom generation has economic security, which it does not yet have, it does not run the country economically. It is today in middle management. It is today starting businesses. It has not succeeded yet in business. When that is done and that is we're talking 345 years, then you're going to see. Government policies from really doing using the taxation system. System. Low cost loans to minority business people and a massive campaign, a crusade in North America to wipe out poverty, A crusade to clean up the environment, and our attitude towards Central America. The generation that stopped the war in Vietnam is not going to send troops to Central America. But at the same time, what happened in Vietnam after we left? The war in Vietnam still going on. We'll be in the needs are not portraying the Cambodians. Maybe that state should not be isolationist. Maybe we've got to have a different attitude toward the developing world and attitude that recognizes the right for revolution when revolution is necessary or an attitude that recognizes the right for self determination and economic control over. Of their own natural resources, but at the at the same time maintains. Some protection of American interests, in other words, the world a little more complicated than it was in the 1960s, when you're protesting, by the way, and when you're saying no, and Abby Hoffman's entire presentation can be reduced by the way to the word no, it's a little easier. No, against this, against this, against this, OK. Abby, what's your program for abolishing poverty? OK, Abby, what would you do in Central America? What would you do in the arms race? You're not a part. You gotta not. You're not responsibility for 200 million Americans and the Canadians and the Western Alliance. Now you gotta admit now you gotta administer policy and the questions get a little more complicated. And that's what the baby boom generation is wrestling with right now, because many of those people intend to have to make those decisions, decisions that the lives of other people rely on. And it just can't simply be anti Americanism and protest. And I'm against this. It's got to be some understanding of world forces and some. Some adjustment to that reality. He says the changes happened from moral minority nonsense changes will take place when we put a majority in the country and we will have the majority. Abby Hoffman has a minority consciousness about change. Fine. I hope you don't in the audience. I hope you recognize the fact that what you believe could become the majority and we're going to do it not by cutting ourselves off from the desire of people to be successful. I assume in this room that might be a few people that intend perhaps to be entrepreneurs. There might be a few people that intend to go into business. There might be a few people, heaven forbid, that want to make. Money. Anyone that should want to make money or maybe I'm in a room and no one wants to make money. OK, so since. Since some of you want to make money, the question is, does that then make you part of them, or can you make money become successful, even become rich, and then still have a social conscience and still have a social awareness and still want to make change? The young earned professionals or the agency? That's going to change North America and the next years. Thank. You very much.

Abbie: 7 minutes left to confront all that very slick, very seamless USA TODAY you know, love it. America is the information capital of the world. The average American cannot tell you where South Africa is. That's how much America is the information capital, the world garbage. Jerry Rubin was introduced as the founder of the Yuppies. That's nonsense. The yuppies are not an organization they never had. And founded the Uppies are a social phenomenon out there, sociologists advertising people, advertising people probably came up with with the idea just so they could sell more goods to the people. It's a social phenomenon like flappers, like punks like hippie. In the in the 60s, there was a social phenomenon called hippies. People wore long hair, they were beads. They smoke pot, they listen to rock'n'roll. They had free attitudes toward sex and everything. They wandered around the streets in bare feet. They didn't call themselves hippies. We sat in a room. Five of us. And we said, how are we going to transform this social phenomenon? Into a political Action Group, we're going to come up with the idea Yippies we knew what the Yippies were because we invented it. So the media had to come to us. What is the yippie? Well, a yippie is against the War of Vietnam. Against racism. He's for the legal. He or she is for the legalization. Of of abortion, all these kinds of things that we we had a political program, we had a strategy. It meant doing something. It meant getting off your *** and going into the streets. It meant going to. It meant going to Chicago. So we knew what it was. The the Yippies were not the predecessors of the yuppies, the yuppies, that word. Will be come and gone. How many people call themselves yuppies? It's just doesn't exist. Doesn't mean there isn't a phenomenon out there. Yuppies, because we say it is. It exists. Jerry Rubin didn't found the yuppies we are. Are not flaming intellectuals. We are unique, unique in the European, in the old world tradition. We don't just invent abstract ideas or play with theories. We're an American phenomenon. We see the world as it comes through our bodies as it comes through our personal experiences, all our books. When Jerry says do it, he. Was doing it. That's what he was doing. Was it? He still does it today. If you in the in the in the various debates we have. What is a Yip? A yuppie, A yuppie, has an American Express credit card. A yuppie doesn't eat roast beef. A yuppie jog, 6 hours. Whatever he's doing, that's what yuppie is because he's setting himself up as a prototype. Therefore, it's legitimate. To attach and attack him personally, it's perfectly a legitimate question to ask us both what we are doing to bring about the social change we are both talking about. Ask us what are doing Washington Post? Asked Jerry. And he said I used to get angry at anything political. Now I don't have a political part in my head. Reaganomics. And what it is doing to the poor and the elderly, Ruben ways, the subject of side. No reaction at all. See, it might be a better, healthier attitude. That's what he had. Then everybody sat before him on the campus. And so he started taking it back. He said recently Ronald Reagan's a peacemaker. He's going to go down in history as the great peacemaker. Everything is rosy, everything is optimistic. It's asked. I don't know if you haven't know about S if he Joey went through this, he got ested accentuate the positive and therefore it's all. Muslim troops won't go in because we wish it. It won't go in. It doesn't come from the hard work of trying to convince people that the policy of the United States is wrong. Nuclear war is wrong. Yeah, but in the networking salons, we don't discuss that. Here's what Jerry Rubin says about nuclear war. And I quote, if somebody showed up with an anti nuclear ban at my networking salon. I'd have the person thrown out. These sessions are about business. They're not about politics, in other words, it's a clear separation. It's just what your job, counselor is telling you. It's what your rich uncle is telling you, you know, forget about all those other silly things. Just pay attention to going for the dollar, because that's what success. When he says success, does it not mean the accumulation of wealth, or does it not? I mean, is it an artist painting a painting for self-expression? No. Is it somebody helping disadvantaged kids who are handicapped is something doing it for themselves? No. Success comes with a dollar sign. It's very narrowly defined, he says. That. He says. What was I going to say that I'm. My voice is still gone, he says. That I am guilt tripping people. I am guilt tripping you into going out and getting involved. I'm not. Guilt tripping you. I'm Jewish. We guilt trip our kids to eat their dinners. Nobody says nobody says go out and do it. I have. I have no idea that I that I want to make you all full time organizers. I'm not a full time activist. This is my little business here. This is part of my Entrepreneurship 4 three more guilt tripping than the concept of yuppies. There could be more guilt tripping. No one's a sharecropper living in Bangladesh until recently, no one was on his own working someone else's line with no capital, no security. He and his family barely surviving. But now thousands of people in Bangladesh are securing access to the land. Are banding together and no one is one of them. Together with the help of USC Canada, he and a small group of other sharecroppers have been able to lease this land for five years. With irrigation. Better farming techniques, education about health and sanitation, and small learners. The USC is helping them build a brighter future for themselves. Help other people like Logan and his family send your donation to USC, Canada, 56 Sparks St. Ottawa.

Jerry: Serving Silver Lake Penhold Black balls and red deer, this is your community channel, Shaw Cable 10.

Abbie: I don't care if I'm giving the same talk over and over again. I don't care. It wasn't my idea is to substitute Vietnam for Central America. It was Ronald Reagan and his friend's idea the same war is still there. The same imperialist attitude, the same foreign aggression has to be resisted in the same way, Cherry says we a lot. We he already represents. So we, well, Mark Twain had a good he said only Kings, editors and folks with tapeworms should use the concept of weak. If you're going to use. If you're going to use the concept of we, if you're going to use the concept of we, it's going to have a me in it. So you're going to ask Jerry what he's doing when he says he supported Gary. Terrific. But I know what he did around Gary Hart. He did nothing. Gary had had more support from his jockstrap. Jerry Rubin didn't help run benefits. He didn't register voters. He didn't go out campaigning for him. Now, I was active in that election. I helped write environmental speeches for Jesse Jackson, who was my candidate. I went and spoke as a surrogate speaker. From him, I went on tours, I helped formulate policy. I was participating in that process. I say that if you narrow the blinds and you say we're just gonna go for the dollar, we're just gonna pay attention to our careers. Only you are missing the boat. You are not participating in the decisions and it's going to come back to haunt you. That's the problem with young kids today. That's why they walk around. They can't walk on the streets. They can't drink the air. They can't drink, they can't do anything like that. They're very timid. They're all going to die in a nuclear Holocaust. Imagine half the young people. In the United States, polls show. Believe that they're going to parachute nuclear health. What? What insanity, what passivity? I mean, at least when we were young, we thought we were going to die on the streets, on the barricades, changing things. It's a better kind of a fantasy than just accepting your fate. That there's nothing you can do about it. I'm saying there are things you can do about it. There is another power besides money. In all the battles, the environmental. Battles we will always outspent by the industrial polluters and the utility companies and the. Army Corps of. Engineers. There's another kind of power besides money, and that's people organizing people, bringing them together to struggle for social change is what is another kind of power. And if that's being cynical, if that's being disillusioned. Then I'll plead guilty.

Q&A

Moderator: Hello, ladies and gentlemen, there is a microphone here in the center aisle. And so that we can all hear the the questions that you may have, I would ask you if you wish to ask a question to come to the microphone and to phrase the question from there, once again, you may address the question to either of the speakers this evening. That speaker will respond 1st and the other may respond if he so desires. Yes, Sir.

Audience #1: My question is directed to Mr. Rubin. What makes you so positive that when your generation is in positions of power that it's going to do all the things that you say it's going to do that are all based on compassionate social conscience? And I mean, this is something that. I recall learning in first year of political science. Why would you? Why would you want to change a system that's being so good to you? Why would you want to change something that puts you in a? Position of power.

Jerry: Actually, the fact is, is that the baby boom generation has always been anti authoritarian and in a sense still is anti authoritarian. In the 60s you obviously saw how it was anti authoritarian in the 70s it challenged social norms and the 80s very much anti big business. Very much anti big government, very much transforming capitalism. So I don't see the system having put. Would you call my generation? But I'm talking about the generation we're talking about. We put that generation in power. I think that generation has recreated itself. Every decade and every number few number of years, the set and it also has established the priorities for America. Each time it established the price for America in the 60s and the 70s, the priorities for America with the women's movement, the health movement, personal relationships, honesty, openness with people, that was the baby boomers imposing. That, in a sense, on the nations consciousness, and today you see baby rumors that are recreating themselves and entrepreneurial America, the baby boomers are extremely. Influenced as I think everyone is, by their childhood, by their growing up experience, it's a generation. That has I. Mean polls have been taken of it have asked these questions. Very, very much anti intervention. So you're going to see that the United States is going to have a whole different attitude toward its military. And this generation. Is in power. Very much pro male, female equality. We're not questioning these things, but we're. Seeing what they're doing. Ready and attitude toward the poor. I think it's struggling with what the solution is. No one. Really has the solution on. How to abolish poverty? You know, there was an attempt to do it through the so-called Great Society. I admit it was 1/2 hearted attempt but it creates an institutionalized a poor dependent on government. I think the basic statement to be made about the baby boom. Generation is it's an exploring generation that's basically anti thorium that recreates reality as it moves along. And that is is is not going to be let's say not it's not going to come to say from compassion or come from giving? Things up then. It's going to come from problem solving. It's a problem solving generation and and poverty is a problem to be solved. One individual cannot. Rebuild the school system. So no, you can't. You're not going to expect. Five or six baby boomers to get together and say we're going to change the American school system by giving up money. That's not what it's gonna happen. It's gonna happen through legislation. It's gonna happen through business. It's gonna happen through a president coming together and saying how do we take on this problem and solve this problem? Thank you.

Abbie: Well, first of all, you have to recognize that the problem exists and you have to kind of see it. I mean, there's 2 million homeless people in the United States with the average American doesn't have as good a medical plan as the average Canadian most. I would say 99% of all Americans. Don't even know that they believe they got the best of everything. They don't have the best of all possible worlds. That's part of the isolationist education. How are people going to solve poverty? They're going to solve. Poor people are. To solve it by organizing themselves and demanding an end to poverty, they're gonna do it through political means, through grassroots organizations. That's the only way they're gonna they're gonna do it, Jerry says. Go out there. We aren't gonna get that. The 40 year old Black Woman in Harlem to go out and be an entrepreneur. We'll go get the kid. How you gonna get it through education, so. Who's going to build? Some business there is going to come along and find. Out that it's. Profitable to to set up schools and home? That's ridiculous. It's going to have to take the government. Jerry fosters keeps the illusion going. That we don't want a government of handouts. They're nevertheless the government of handouts in the United States, not in my lifetime made in Franklin Delano Roosevelt in the 1930s. With the new deal. Maybe they will hand us, but never in my lifetime has the United States government gone and giving money to poor people in the United States. That's ridiculous. Seen handouts given to large multinational corporations last year in the United States, 90,000 corporations made a profit and didn't pay a cent in taxes. That's not handouts, of course. That's not special interest groups, so that's a lie that the United States ever had in our lifetime a. Our policy of handing out money that ever was a welfare state, the uppies, the Gary hot people, abolished the welfare state, vote for Gary Hyde. What welfare state? Where did it exist? I say how? How can the universities participate in abolishing? Poverty. They can train community organizers. They can train people that have the skills to go into these areas and organize people. Are you gonna get rich at it? No way. You're not gonna get rich at it. Are you gonna get some self fulfillment? Yes. You're gonna get some self. Fulfillment. You have to stress different values, different priorities than the ones that are being stressed today. If this isn't a popular notion, that's not my game right now. My game is to carry on the continuity and to speak the truth as I see it, and I dress myself to the social needs.

Moderator: First, first violation of the rule. 30 extra seconds to Mr.

Jerry: Rubin like to call your attention to Abby Hoffman's solution for poverty, poor people organizing and demanding an end to poverty. Lovely idea. I think that we're going to wait a long time for that to happen. It didn't happen in the 60s. It's just that there's. A culture that doesn't. No conception of the culture of poverty that keeps people stuck in that it's just not going to happen. Gandhi, the Prime Minister of India, said India has missed the industrial revolution. We will not miss the information revolution. What the government must do is put businesses related to the information economy and poor communities and use the tax system to force businesses in there and then move. Whether they can save taxes. Use the government to do it. And using private capitalism through young professionals.

Audience #2: Next question I would I would like to ask both of you how much you will learn tonight and also where you intend to spend your money.

Abbie: Right. Is not my natural inclination to come to this bastion of radical subversion called Red Deer AB. But nothing, it's just not my inclination, especially on a Friday night. I'm supposed to be in school, so I have. How much do will I make? About $1300, I guess. Out of tonight. Where is it? Where is it going to go? I support myself. I support two other activists. The the organizations that I work for, I charge a dollar a year. Some is going to go probably about 35% of my income, 40% of my income goes to the things I'm involved with. I don't own stocks, bonds. I don't even have medical. Insurance. I don't have a lot of things of material value. I got an 8 year old car. I don't own real estate. I practice what I preach. I'm not a St. he wants Saints. Go look at the Catholics. They believe in Saints. I don't even believe in them. I am trying to strike that proper balance between. My personal needs, my family's needs and my responsibility as a citizen of my community and of the world I'm trying to do it as honestly as I can.

Jerry: I'm making the same amount of. Money that he's making. First of all, there's an assumption that I want to question. I think it's OK to be paid for what you do in North America. No, no embarrassment about it. I. Know in the 60s. I used to be real. Weak about it and hide the fact that we were getting paid for talks in the 70s too, because it was the kind of idea that you got paid for what you were doing. You therefore were a phony and and a fraud. Abby needs to live and and and. And I think they charge Abby the subway charges him just like it charges anyone else. And the doctors charge him. And as a matter of fact, I also don't like Abby saying that, you know, proudly announced he doesn't have things of material value value. There's nothing wrong with having things of material value. I'm not a particularly materialistic person, but I I like having good things and I don't think there's any contradict. Between having good things and also wanting to be idealistic and change the country, the money that I get tonight, I'll, I'll. I'll use it for myself. Thank you. I'll put it into my business. I have three businesses I'm working on in New York. The money going to my businesses. So the, my wife and I will use it whatever way we can to to, to to build the kind of thing I'm doing. I do these speeches of these debates with Abby for a number of reasons. One reason is the money, because there's no overhead, there's no risk you come, you speak. I mean, it's not like having a business. Where have? Employees, et cetera. But second of all, I have a goal here. And my goal is to influence. The young professionals to move in a politically positive direction and to give some cohesion and sense of meaning to to the concept of yuppie and the concept of young professionals change in North America. I don't think there's. Anyone right now who's exactly saying what I'm saying about baby boomers. Their idealism combined with their capitalism, I think it's a very important message. And I'm doing debates for that reason and I would not be doing the debates probably. And I wasn't. I went to him, but was he any?

Jerry: Money is a motivator, there's nothing. Wrong with that? That's the story. Thank you.

Questioner #3: I'd like to address my question to Mr. Rubin. You need to comment in your rebuttal that you could, if you chose, stir us to some kind of radical action here tonight. But you don't think it. Would do any good it? Would fail, and yet you introduced your comments tonight. With little tales of how much good it did do when you were doing it in the 60s, you ousted 2 presidents. You ended a war in Vietnam. Or maybe you just got the US out of it. Weren't too clear on that point. What I get out of that is that it's OK for you guys and the rest of the yuppies to do it, but not for me and my generation to be doing. It I'd like to know why that is. I suspect it's because you're afraid that if you're not allowed to change the power structure that you sit in from within, then we're going to do it from without, and we're going to take away your. Yuppie period and leave you standing there in your Calvin crying underwear with nothing but your Perry Ellis tie to hang yourself with. Don't want to leave you standing there and your Calvin Klein underwear with nothing but your Curry all. Tied to hang yourself.

Jerry: Anyway, you you misquoted me. I didn't say I could stir you to radical action tonight. That's not what I said. I do not think I could stir you to radical action tonight. What I said is I could make you feel guilty. And I could do a lot of guilt tripping and I could get a lot of applause by attacking a lot of things. That's what I said. If I felt that all I had to do was give a speech and I could steer you. To radical action. Tonight I'd have a whole different view of where young people at and where America is at, and where can Canada's at? I don't think that one speech can store. People to radical action. What I said is I could give the same 60 speech and it would not work because it did not work. Then why did it work then and not why did it work then in terms of action? Because it was a war in Vietnam going on. Because it came in the United States were engaged in the bombing of a country and and people there was no one acting except college students. Then the speeches would work. Then something would work. It doesn't it? It's not going to come from an agitator agitating you up. I am not at all worry. I would love to see the kind of rebellion you're talking about. That's absolutely ridiculous. The kind of thing you're talking about would assist young professionals. It would be fine. They're doing nothing to stop it from happening. It's not happening because you're not doing it. And if you're not doing it, that is your response. Quality and for some reason you're not doing it. It's not happening in America either, maybe because you looked in the 60s and said, well, what did they get after? It was all over. They didn't get very far. Maybe you think it's going to be futile and not work. As a matter of fact, do it, great, fine, excellent. I don't particularly feel that my role should be attempt to get people. To do it. Because I think there's a much better, much bigger challenge ahead and that's the challenge of. Taking over the government, the biggest threat to the government is not protesters. Hey, they're protesting like crazy in Europe and they still put the Polaris missiles in and you can protest all you want in the United States and they watch the protest and go ahead and do the policy. You want to threaten the power elite, go after their power. Unelect them get them out of their horse to power over that. That's the real power. Demonstrations are excellent. What demonstrations do is get attention. Demonstrations call attentions to evil. They don't solve the problems of evil. The problems evil solved by people with economic and political and military power behind them. Making decisions behind those forces. That's how those decisions can be made. Protest is great. Let's do it, but what about after protest?

Abbie: First of all, Jerry's playing a shallow game. That whole rap about I'm always saying no and he's saying yes, that's that's an unfortunate twist. That's a major mass media kind of version of people that are trying to sponsor social change that doesn't have to be the mainstream. Thought that they're reading about it today, but if if you're fighting for clean air or water, you are saying yes to clean air and clean water, you're just saying no to industrial pollution and toxic waste. That's what you're saying no to if you're if you're saying that you're you're interested in. East in Central America, you're interested in the USA helping economically, not going out there and trying to support the rich oligarchies. You're saying yes, you're saying yes to the people of Central America. There's a yes implicit in every single no. When Jerry pointed to the woman that asked the question and says you go out and you go out and do it. I have a hunch. From her body language that she. Already is doing it. He said we are going to change things. We are going to take over. We're going to do all this, go do it, but don't call me. That's what he's essentially saying. Don't call me. I kind of envy him in a way. I mean, I I would like a lot of times in my life to have the same attitude I was running for my life out there in the Canadian US border and the Thousand Islands the Amacore came in said to the people we're going to blow up all these islands. We're going to destroy all communities. And you know what? It's going to be progress and it's going to be in the national security and the people all went around mumbling, staring at their feet and saying there's apathy. We can't we it's going to be horrible. Tears were in their eyes. The area is so damn beautiful and everything. And they said it's nothing we can do about it. And here I'm sitting there and I'm looking at all the proposals and I'm saying there's nothing we can do. Got it. In Mississippi, we changed legal segregation. It existed for 200 years in that country. It was brought down. We fought the Pentagon. It's not easy fighting against foreign wars of aggression from your own country wasn't very popular. People get to sing, fight songs and wave the flag and burn the hippies. They have a really good time. It's not very popular. To oppose your government at a time of farm Warren, by golly, we did it. And through all those years we're accumulating the skills on how to communicate. I mean, Jerry can talk. Can talk endlessly. He knows words. He's a wordsmith ship. He's an expert at it. Why not use the words for something else? I I was stuck with that dilemma. What am I going to do? Can I can I? Knowing what I know inside me that the people here can win, believing that they can win, knowing that if I do certain things. Other things will fall into place and we can beat the Army Corps of edges. Once I knew that I can't walk away from it. What am I supposed to do, sit there, watch him blow up all these islands and say it's progress or say, well, we'll wait till 1990. We'll get another president. We'll put all. The islands back. I don't know how to do it.

Moderator: Next question

Questioner #4: I’ll talk to Jerry again. Previous to tonight, I thought that Abby Hoffman was outdated and I thought that you could actually change the system from within. But after attending your lecture this afternoon where it doesn't, people had attended and seeing you. Press conference. I found that I've been disillusioned in believing in you and your ideas. One of the first things you stated in your lecture this afternoon was to, as a yuppie to cut through all the BS and get down to the bottom line, which for you, as you defined it, was money and finances. And then you made a reference of. Saying rather than say. Hi, how are you? What's your name? Was to ask. Hi, how are you? What's your bank account? Some something to that effect that we should be able to openly discuss how much money we have in the bank account. And I think the 12 people that were in the room with me got the same impression. And yet when people asked you what you did have in your bank account, you refused to tell us.

(Audience laughs)

Either explaining that it was our own cynicism or something to that effect, and even when I approached you personally, you told me that it was an irrelevant point at that particular time. And so in front of all these people, I'd like to challenge you to practice what you preach and. As Abby Hoffman had said, he lives what he believes, and so I'd like you to tell all these people how much money you do have in your bank account.

Abbie: That was terrific, how’s business Jerry? How’s it going? Are you making a buck?

Jerry: Well, it's more complicated than that. I own two businesses that are worth a. Considerable amount of money. I have. I have a I. I'm not a rich man. I have a pause. I have a positive cash flow. I probably have 20 thirty $40,000 net worth. That's what you want. I'm not a rich person because basically it was 1978-1980 that I went into business. Up until then I was not into business at all. I pretty much I didn't have Abby's philosophy on most things, but I had Abby's philosophy on. In money, I did my first entrepreneurial venture in well, first one was a not-for-profit venture in 1978. Then in 1980 I started a business. That business grows the main and have dollars its first year I said gross the profit was much less and I have a networking 500 club. That gross is 100. For the year. Gross is 100 Grand a year, so at this moment I I am learning the tools of entrepreneurship. If I've been doing this for 1520 years, I would be much more successful than I am, but I'm three or four years into this and and I'm learning a lot and I'm very excited about the adventure. I don't think I said you show up to someone asked what's in the bank account. What I said is someone. Missed me about money in America and I said that money is almost a bigger secret than sex and. The people are more likely to. Tell you about your their sex lives than they are to tell you about their financial reality and their money is an obscenity. We're embarrassed about money, and I think that would be nice to have a more open society about that. That's all I said. I didn't say should go to someone and ask them. I don't think you go up to someone, ask them anything like that. That's so personal. They hardly. Know what? Your sex. Type what your money situation, but yeah, basically basically the important thing for you to know is that I am a struggling entrepreneur that I taught. I taught myself the tools of business. And I learned them the hard way. Abby often made the point earlier that I all these entrepreneurs going out of going bankrupt, the whole key to to business is starting and failing and starting again. You don't go into anything, especially business. And make a. $1,000,000 or succeed or hit the jackpot the first time around you. It's a learning experience. And I I've I've made my mistakes now. I'm ready to. Benefit I made every possible mistake you. Can make in business I've made. Already I made it myself. And I learned about it. I didn't learn it by reading. A book I learned by experience.

Abbie: I have to apologize for Jerry using a dirty word like sex in Alberta. He doesn't notices the Bible Belt capital. I have some friends who are rich, close friends, but I I believe. That the concept of rich depends on the concept of poor that that the rich as a class get their money by sticking it to the poor as a class, I mean that it it's almost by definition I you can't have rich people without poor people because it's measured by money. But what the yuppies have done? But as a phenomenon. It's pretty interesting if you go into the large cities of the United States, they really redefine the middle class in a way the middle class gets squeezed out of the cities. It's a process called gentrification, with where the real estate values just skyrocket. So the yuppies, the typical yuppie. Is the news. We called it the year of the yuppie. One of their prototypes was Laura Gilbert. She's a lawyer. She says. Oh, I can't get. But I I can just barely get by on 2 new wardrobes each week. I can get by on 200,000. You if I don't have any children. I mean the the definition of what is now middle class in the urban society gets pushed to like it's $100,000. You gotta have $100,000 a year or else you're poor. So the middle class essentially gets squeezed out. That's all. That's what I see as the phenomenon of the of the of the yuppie. How much money does Jerry having is how much business? How much business is he doing? I don't know how much business he's doing. I don't care if he goes out and makes money. I wish him well. I hope he goes out and makes money. He paid his dues in the 1960s. If he wants to retire, go out and make money. Wants to say, run out of gas. I can understand that. Of city in Washington with the same schleppy arguments, hearing the same schleppy arguments about how we make decision, who does this? Who's gonna run into me? Who's doing this that I heard in 1964. But I realize that a certain amount of patience is needed that you have to realize that we're all flawed now. I I've learned something in middle age. Things aren't going to happen in a minute. I'm prepared for U.S. policy in Central America to be roughly this way for 10 or 15 years to come. It's not going to happen overnight. It change and it's certainly not going to happen in the sterile, nice kind of evolutionary way that Jerry. Portrays it's going to happen through sweat and struggle.

Jerry: Interesting to learn from Abby Hoffman that. The rich get rich by. Sticking it to the poor, the thundering, the rich people, because they're poor people, absolute nonsense side. I guess you got that in some Marxist textbook that even that even the but even the Marxists don't believe anymore.

Abbie: I read it in ‘Do it!’

Jerry: Interesting also that he blames the yuppies for 1970s inflation. And the fact that he's hanging out with snappy people, hearing sloppy arguments maybe ought to get away from those kind of people who come work with people that are doing something about the country. Some people are organizing, add the offline on Wall Street, Addy Hoffman in the conglomerate, add the offer with his power, his energy and his ideas. He would have so much power and change in this country. I want to say I be up in the Congress. I want to say I'll be up in. In in business, I wanted to have you up and doing something. Instead he's back with the old people from the 70s, from the 60s. That's what disappoints me about Andy Hoffman. He'll be doing the same thing for the next 20 years. You can bet in 20 years from now I'll be doing something built on what I'm doing today. I won’t be in the same position, he will be.

Questioner 5: I guess there's a few things I'd like to say, Mr. Rubin. I'd truly appreciate apology to the crowd here for calling all those people from the 60s and 70s idiots. We are not idiots. We are Canadians.

Jerry: Did I say idiots? Remind me, what was the sentence?

Questioner 5: I'm not quite sure. Yes, you did.

Jerry: No one else remembers.

Questioner 5: What I'd like to say is that we are Canadians and we should be united as Canadians. I don't think we have to have anything derogatory from the American stance which you take.

Moderator: Excuse me, what is your question?

Questioner 5: I think that we are Canadians. We don't have to be related to Americans. We have to be united as Canadians, we as Canadians, we should take the same risk that Americans are willing to take as Canadians.

Moderator: Excuse me, but what is your question?

Jerry: Well, I agree with the question the question so we can go on. I agree.

Questioner 5: Are you willing to call us people here today as opposed to Canadians.

Abbie: How can he do that you came to see him talk.

Questioner 5: Are you asking me to sit down? Do you deny calling us idiots, Mr. Rubin?

Jerry: Yes!

Moderator: Thank you. Next question please.

Abbie: He didn’t mean that, I'll knock you a little.

Questioner #6: I have a question for Mr. Rubin. You seem so convinced that in 1988 the the great yuppie majority is going to take over power in the form of a President of the post war generation. But what I can't understand is the vast support that Ronald Reagan and his cronies have had in 1980 and 1984. Note that doesn't this vast yuppie majority? Vote. Didn't they vote that?

Jerry: The polls clearly showed. That Gary Hart was the yuppie candidate. The polls also. Showed that when Democrats, and it wasn't the the blacks with the social conscience that killed Hart, it was the old line Democrats. From from the AFL-CIO tied up with the city politicians that destroyed the hard candidate candidacy that when the Democrats nominated Mondale. Reagan's got the yuppie boat close not not overwhelmingly, very close, polls taken a week before the election, said if Gary Hart were the candidate and asked, Jeffries showed Reagan and Hart running neck and neck between for yuppies. And that's where our heart's doing a debate making a speech. Doing anything the support that the yuppies gave Ronald Reagan was holding their nose and voting for them because they feared Mondale and the policies of the past. They, for example, you find among yuppies. Absolutely no sub. Poor and the religious right, among yuppies, yuppie politics and Reagan politics has absolutely nothing in common. The next candidate is elected, will have to be a candidate who speaks the language and value system of young professionals. Whether it's the Democrats doing it or the Republicans doing it. I think the Democrats. Have a greater need to do it and are more likely to do it, and you're going to find that that candidate is going to overwhelmingly get the yuppie vote. Not even close. Overwhelmingly, the yuppies are independent and not Democrats and not Republicans, and they are certainly not in Reagan's pocket. Please don't leave. I think that for a. 2nd.

Questioner #6: No, I don't, I. Realize you're not supporting Reagan, but.

Jerry: Well, the the key point is this. Who set the terms of the debate, the person or people that set the terms of? The debate have the power. The terms of the debate were Mondale, Reagan. Yeppers would totally. Go out. I felt. Shut out of that debate. You put a debate leg in the heart. I feel involved. My dear heart. I feel involved. You have an election coming up in 1988, Bradley. Bush. I'll feel very involved. Hart Bush. I'll feel very involved. You'll see. Bush will get very small percentage of the yuppie vote.

Questioner #6: I think the. Main point I'm trying to make is that.

Moderator: 111 question.

Abbie: To meet what is that?

Questioner #6: The main point I was trying to make was. I think that there's not a majority of urban professionals like the majority of people just don't share the same those same beliefs. Right or wrong, you know, whether you agree with them or not, I think.

Moderator: Thank you. Thank you.

Questioner #6: It's a different world.

Abbie: Well, I think Jerry is going to always talk about politics as if it's the presidential campaign because it's a long way off and you know he'll have time to make his $1,000,000, which he says that's his goal. He'll have time to make his $1,000,000 in three years and then he can get involved from the president. Election, but I don't see that as politics. I mean, we're given the choice, you know, every four years between the lesser of two evils, of the evil of two lessons. That's about what it boils down to. That's not politics. Politics is how you divide your time, your energy, your money between your. Individual needs and your responsibility to the community as a whole. That's something you do every single day, and you tend to do it on the local level and you tend to do it by and it's done by pushing, by pushing all the elected, the elected officials and not royalty. They're not loyal. Nothing. They are there to be pushed. They don't just make decisions like that. They get pushed to make decisions. They're going to make a decision that you want. You have to push them. It is pushing. It is rude. It is in a manner and in my contact with Canadians working throughout the Great Lakes on coalitions, the 112 Canadians have is that they have two well mannered, they're just too mannered. They're so caught up with manners, doesn't it? Look, doesn't it look bad for Canada if there are people out there in Quebec City, in the streets, saying Ronald Reagan go home with your acid rain, go home with your nuclear doesn't look bad for Canada. That's that's the whole feeling about it. That's why we have we. That joke on the border? Canada. Canadians love growing. Where else can you sit down, move backwards and think you win it? I mean, that's why they love growing, you know. Interrupting business as usual, standing up to the to someone like the United States, recognizing that you might be a NEO colony in the same position. These are the Mexico right United States? Yeah, we're not the Americas. And the United States. I mean, there's Mexico is there too, you know? And the treatment is no. But the treatment is no different economically. It's polite. It's done with a velvet glove. Don't you have we have a nice relationship with New Zealand? With Australia? They're white too. It's a nice relation. You don't think the CIA is in there trying to get the unions right now buying off people, buying off the press? They're up in Australia. Bucked us a while back ago with Whitlam. The CIA was right in there and sabotaged them. They're all over there. They all over the place. So you have to find your position, find your Canadian identity. Are you a country? Are you not? Are you a colony in the United States? Are you still part of a colony of England? Are you a country as a whole find out your identity and then fight for it.

Moderator: Next question.

Speaker 9: Mr. Hoffman. You said that Mister Trudeau was a great man.

Abbie: Well, I exaggerate a little, I would, sure. Have said good. OK, I.

Speaker 9: We have a deficit increased several 100 billion. We have had metric forced upon us. Millennialism. Bilingualism anybody here has to have a license to buy a gun. We have military law.

Abbie: That's it.

Speaker 9: But anyhow, why was Mr. Ferrara great man?

Abbie: Well, I think. You like my goonie? That's your choice. Why did I think Trudeau was good? Because I think even though he did sign the agreement that allowed for the cruise. Testing and he did welcome Litton Industries, which builds components for nuclear weapons. And he did encourage the use of nuclear power here in Canada and more continued sales of uranium oxide to anybody who wanted it around the world. But I think he was working in the last three years towards a general peace towards the world. Piece towards a reduction of armaments and I think what he was saying was having an effect was having some effect. I I kind of I miss him. I I don't like Muldoon Magoon. He was down in New York City about three months. Well, he gave a speech to 1500 US executives and what he essentially was saying is Canada's up for.

Speaker 9: Sale. Come on in.

Abbie: It's up for sale. That's how I read the speech. If you didn't read the speech that way, well.

Speaker 9: What about the deficit with Mr. Trudeau?

Abbie: Well as the.

Speaker 9: Was that right?

Abbie: Deficit been brought down. I don't, I don't. I don't know. About the deficit.

Speaker 9: It's gone up $700.

Abbie: Mr. Trudeau, I'm not a Canadian. We have, we have tremendous deficits without version of Moe Rooney, Ronald Reagan, he's been there for five years and we have the biggest deficit we've ever had in that history. Why? Because Ronald Reagan has Americans. Convinced that big government means. Medicaid. It means Social Security. It means help for students on going to loans. It doesn't mean missiles. It has nothing to do with the military. That's not big government. Don't worry about that. He's spending the country into the ground and and he's got the people bamboozled by thinking, governments getting smaller and smaller. He's betting against the future, the bubble. Wants to breakdown there. You're not going to tell me that Ronald Reagan is a Trudeau, that he's a liberal and you're not going to tell me the United States doesn't have the hugest deficit in his history. It's got it and it's got it with Reg. So what makes you think, Brian Mulrooney? I don't know his politics, but I I know he's from the Conservative Party, and I know he's a good friend of Ronald Reagan's. And they. Buddy, buddy all. The time and they like each other and I.

Speaker 9: Know he isn't Trudeau. I never said to. Me when he was good.

Abbie: Well, you get a. Little of a third choice up here.

Speaker 14: Social reform doesn't go very far unless there's some sort of emotion involved and a generation of emotion, and I believe that Mister Hoffman's lifestyle is to generate some emotional ****-*** with baby boomers that fell to a certain way in the 60s to get some steam. Knowing I would like to know who's *** you kick, and I would also like to know if you are going to rent the public office. Thank you.

Jerry: I saw myself as an ask kicker in the 60s. I don't see my role doing that in the 80s. I think that's good that I have is around kicking *****. I think that was also needed is people whose when they ask is kicked, have a positive policy and have the power. To implement it. I do not intend to run for office. For a number of reasons. One of which I don't think I'm electable. I think that what I did in the 60s would probably make it impossible for me to be elected. I I, for example, I was nine months in jail and I think that should. Ever be nominated for any office, the media, the description of me from the 60s would be so overpowering that I don't think that I would be an appropriate candidate. I just don't think I'm electable. I'm also not a politician type. However, I I more or less see my role as a. As as creating ideas and trends and myths and stories and moving people in a certain direction, I did not say that I founded the Yippies. There's been no statement that I found the Yippies what was said was the yuppies. What was said was the yuppies were created, were created.

Speaker 11: Maybe afternoon.

Jerry: To to describe the people that came to my events and what I intend to do. And as I said, one reason I'm doing these debates is to take the concept of yuppie, use it to give the people in the baby boom generation a sense of their own power and their own strength and our identity. Have the Member when the 70s. Going on the baby boom generation was not heard from. They're all doing individual things. They were jogging, they were working at the ships with women. They're working out their health. There was no sense of a. Collective power it. Was really the Gary Hart campaign and it was the concept of yuppie. That was the first thing that gave the baby boom generation a sense of cohesion. It's only been within the past year that you've seen all the media. Coming out and saying how is. The baby boom generation going to change. America, it's all this. Awareness of it, and I see myself as part of, of creating that debate about the baby rumors and influencing them, combining the ideals of the 60s. With the power and achievement of the 1980s.

Speaker 11: The loneliness of the long distance yuppie a good good. The running I would like.

Speaker 15: To ask Mr. Rubin what his definition of success is, you mentioned that several times and I'd also like to add a health warning that pairing your water contains both lead and arsenic.

Abbie: Catch you there.

Jerry: Well, to say that Perry Water contains lead and arsenic is ridiculous. Of course, it's not true. Ridiculous. Anyway, just take the last point first. The health movement. Was not top down, it was bottom up and the early 1970s people started exercising. Started eating light food. Started paying more attention to to meat and salt and sugar and people started writing about it only in the last couple of years have the major corporations woken up to this tremendous change in people in which people are saying I'm responsible for my own health. Not doctors that are into a disease cure. Modem not the food industry, which is into putting everything on it so that it tastes good, not the medical industry, not the insurance industry. But you see a massive thing from the bottom up of people exercising and people using diet. And I think the purpose of this is basically that the. People that have done it, which is that? Once more, it's the baby boom generation that has been the spirit of this health movement is people want to be in control of their own bodies, not be fall victim to degenerate disease. Peace and live a long time and this health revolution is a positive, positive transformation. I link it to the entrepreneur revolution and the male female transformation that's going on among yuppies. I define success as doing something well. I've never defined success exclusively as money. Where money comes in is. That in the United States and I. Assume in Canada too. You need first of all money to live. Let's start with that. That's the fact we thought in the 60s. You didn't. We were living off the fat of the land. We were all hippies thinking that our parents trust funds or a few dollars here in the affluent society we may live second of all, the bigger game you want to play in and the capitalistic system requires a greater amount of money. Doesn't mean the person is more successful as a human being or happier as a human being. But if you want to change the country, it's the people who have the money. Now sit power flows out of the gun and America power flows out of the checkbook. The people that control the real estate of New York City are the people that are the. Developers with the money and the power that flows out of the money. I don't say that they are more successful in some humanitarian way or more successful as human beings. But I say that shame on your success of the money will give you more power to change society. That's where money comes in.

Speaker 11: Wow.

Abbie: You've been born again. I mean, I've I have lived to actually see someone who has definitely been born again. I mean, he's just eaten every single page of do it, as if it didn't exist. It's an absolute clear break between the Jerry Rubin that I know. And this, Jerry, when there's an absolutely clear break and as I said before, I'm a little envious because I couldn't shut it out. I'm a. Thousand I got I what's?

Speaker 9: What?

Jerry: The full break.

Abbie: What's the clear breathing do? What says that money is ****? Do what says do? It says that money is violence. Do what would never say that that the real estate brokers like Donald Trump when you admire because you let you say publicly in a newspaper, you know he's in this restaurant. Donald Donald Trump, you know the biggest slum. But New York City, Ohh all of a sudden they got all the power you would have said. The people have the power. I mean, you should go back and read. Do it because you were right and do it and you're still right. Maybe some of the pictures are wrong. Maybe the attitudes are Doug are wrong. But the spirit was exactly right. And I don't know how to do it this way. I went down to Nicaragua, OK? And I talked to people in a little town. People. A woman whose husband had been skinned alive in front of her. I saw kids. Whose? Eyes have been scooped out and I have to come back to the US and see the president of my country taking my tax money, doing that and having to discuss, to call them freedom fighters. Well, I don't know how to shut those pictures out. I don't know just how to say that does not exist. That does not exist and it doesn't matter if we don't have. If we don't have the numbers now, we didn't have the. Numbers in 1964. We didn't we. Didn't have the numbers in 1964 where we protested the war against Vietnam. Less than 8% of the US population was against that policy. Everybody agreed. So we stuck with people stuck with it. It's not how many you have on your side, it's whether what you believe, what you're doing is right or not. That's basically I said my piece.

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Moderator: 30 seconds, Mr.

Jerry: Rubin. When I wrote through it, it was a good capture of the spirit of the 60s. I still support the spirit, but please don't take the words there. That literally money played a different role in the 1960s than it does in the 80s. A lot of thing, a lot of things, a lot of things in the 60s I do I. I changed my mind about there's nothing about being born again. It's a matter of being evolving. Abby's beautifully. He's right back there in the 60s, but the 60s are 18 years old. It's 18 years ago. The 60s are as relevant to you as World War Two was relevant to my generation, and that was pretty non. More events you have to evolve and relate to the period you're living in today and today. Money plays a major role. Thank you.

Abbie: Kenny's also has made himself a yuppie and the baby boomer, and then defined it as people born after World War 2. Both he and I were baby boomers in World War One, born before World War, not shock Game, World War One.

Speaker 7: $0.10.

Speaker 11: You were born in 19.

Speaker 9: Next, Glenn. 40.

Jerry: I mean, pull out of Washington, Post quote and then give him one of those. He doesn't tell the year of that. He's like Joe McCarthy. I got a little yellow piece of paper from the Washington Post and he said this. He doesn't tell you the year was said. This man will tell you that he's been distorted in every newspaper that he's never courted correctly, that he's always making fun of the press.

Speaker ?: So what?

Jerry: But guess what he does in these debates pulls out a newspaper and throws at him within his early talk there about all the things I allegedly said to kind of influence you and not never questioning whether or not I was quoted correctly, never asking me where I was quoted correctly. But laying out as his gospel true. That's not right, Abby.

Abbie: But you keep saying those things, I don't recall. We're at the University of Marquette, someone says. What are you doing and your business, networking about about war, about what he's saying. I'm doing nothing. It would affect my business plan. I don't. You went on television. You said I used to want to overthrow the government. Now I wanna. That was a joke that up and show it up in your sense of humor. That was. What's your sense of humor? Only humor. You're you're the only one I could tell a joke. Yeah, I think that's pretty funny, but where does it say you wanna hold a look at you? What, you want to overlook it? It goes by you. Government just goes by. Don't bother me. Do it.

Jerry: You know how old I am and wanted to change society? Come on. Just not doing it your way. You're away the 60s way.

Speaker 4: So I go ahead. I was in Berkeley in the 60s and in in New York in the late 60s, and I know you before and I know you now. I'm interested that you're in red deer and I'm interested in the fact that you're talking to Canadians. I changed my citizenship when Bobby Kennedy was killed. That was the day that was the end. That the violence in that country is too much, I think. Many of the comments that you have made tonight have addressed changes in American politics and the Presidency in the political system. There you've addressed questions of poverty, health care, that sort of thing, which has been better addressed in Canada already than they have in the US. I see that this is the great debate. I don't know if I'm a yuppie or yippie. I don't think that Canadians polarize in the same way that Americans do, and I don't hear you as polarized. I think you represent 2 viewpoint, two sides of the same viewpoint. My question.

Abbie: That's nice. Now we can go out and have a most right. What's doing downtown? It's really jumping down.

Speaker 4: Enjoy it while you're here. What? I think I'd like to ask is whether how can I phrase this as non American?

Abbie: We aren't whether we sleep together is that.

Speaker 4: Right.

Abbie: What you want?

Speaker 4: I'll start again as non Americans. How do we address the question? We aren't Americans. We aren't going to elect the next president. I helped draft Dodgers get into Canada and the Vietnamese war. We can't do anything direct. We can only do things indirectly that that influence the US. And yet, as Trudeau said, we're sleeping with an elephant. You're the elephant. How in this province, which has no opposition? It's a conservative problem. We need yuppies, and we need yuppies. We need everybody to work together to get some political action, and the keyword is participation, and I'd like your comments on that subject and your input into this situation here.

Jerry: I would love to do that, although I really can't be a 5 hour expert. I've only been here, you know, since 1:00 this afternoon. And if if I really knew enough about the area here to say something intelligent, one of the things I know is don't say anything. You don't know what you're talking about. I don't know about. This area I do have this feeling though and maybe I'm wrong about it, but I have a feeling that the same forces that are in operation in the United States.

Speaker 7: On the on.

Jerry: The social level that I've been talking about are probably in operation in Canada too. For example, the election of Mulrooney seems like when the United States elected Reagan's response to the deficit. With the like same. Let's tighten up our boat kind of idea what's going on here. I have a feeling that perhaps after the United States goes through the electoral process that I'm talking about, maybe Canada will follow. Maybe Canada will precede it. I I also, I do agree with that being one point. And then I was also a fan of the prayer true. No, and I think that his attitude, especially in terms of relations between the big powers, is ahead of his times and it is very appropriate. So I think the things that I've been saying tonight in terms of a generation that went through certain changes in the. 60S then changed. Themselves in the 70s and is changing the country in the 80s. I would guess that it's happening all over Canada too, I don't know.

Speaker 4: It should happen. It should be addressed.

Jerry: Well, maybe you're six months behind. It's only started in the United States and then really six months ago, people were not talking about baby boomers, and yuppies were not a year ago, they weren't talking about it. They really weren't. It happened all of a sudden, the Gary Hart campaign appeared out of nowhere, and he began talking about a new generation taking leadership. And every paper is talking about the labor generation is the number one electoral force in America. The baby generation to determine every election into the third decade of the 21st century. Who are these people? What do they believe everybody all of a sudden three months earlier? Nothing. No mention.

Abbie: Yeah, I I I praise the slain. I I I face the same kind of dilemma I I mean, I feel I know this area because it's like the area where I live in upstate New York. It's beautiful and it's God's country. And God is 78 white, male and conservative. That's what God is.

Speaker 4: You did, you did your homework in the islands and.

Abbie: So and and you can you can organize the people in this area around environmental issues. I know that because I've done that. I mean I've, I've done that as another person who has not known I've done it as Abby Hoffman some. Of the devil. I've still been able to do it because the people really care about their land. They can see it and everything. Once you get into the realm. Of foreign policy, you're talking about godless atheist communism. Etcetera, etcetera, whatever the. Hell, that is nobody knows, but it's the. It's the devil's going to come right across the Bering straits and take us all. So we need to let them practice with the cruises and everything, because they're protecting us. We need to revamp our radar system and everything we've got. To make this a. Whole nuclear island. Now, if you're under that, if you operate under that illusions and I think Jerry caters to that. I mean, I don't like what the Russians are doing in Afghanistan. Either, but the difference between what they're doing, what the United States is doing in Central America, is me. This is it's my country and my name. I'm not a right. If I was a Russian citizen, I'd be in jail. So what does that say? It's pretty in the United States. How is it thrown in jail a lot? I was not allowed in Canada. I had the only book that was banned from Canada for non pornographic. Jesus, I mean things tighten. We're not sometimes, you know, we're free. We're free, we're free. But sometimes we're not so free. But obviously I know it would be different in Russia. I'd be in jail. Probably being in a mental hospital. Big deal. I also know. They have a. Better daycare system than the United States. They have better public transportation. That's heresy. If I see that in the United. States, they say, Oh my God. What did he date? The Russians have something better. I mean, they got caveat. We're getting vodka and caveat, but we're not gonna give daycare centers and public transport away, man. You know, I mean, as long as the people persist in the attitude that we're fighting the devil. They're going to go down the tubes because Ronald Reagan is ready to spend that devil into the ground, and he's ready to take Canada with its money right along with it. The the US military offense program, now called Defense the new MX is now called peacemakers, using all that kind of language that. More policy is responsible for the deficit in the United States, and net deficit is responsible for the devaluation of the Canadian dollar. That's.

Speaker 5: Water. Without it, nothing can survive. But in many countries, water has become a carrier of sickness and disease. Many even die. In the world's villagers have destroyed the water they depend on. Sick and weak, the children find it hard to learn and without help they are condemned to hopelessness and poverty. It would help true Foster parents plans this stream can be made safe again when children like these are helped by foster parents like you. That helps burns out to the whole community. Through a group development plan, entire villages benefit because you care for one child. It takes so little to help a lot. Please write foster parents playing Box 444, Station Q Toronto.

Speaker 16: Don't trust too many people over 5 right about now. I grew up watching you guys obviously didn't appreciate any of what you're doing for its real importance. But the one thing that I brought with me now as an entrepreneur, as a businessman, and I'm and I'm trying to incorporate into that business is what I felt was a sense of fun and rebellion that you carried them. Thus, I I feel pretty torn between you guys right now because I'm aspiring to wealth, right wealth, but. This is a little stiff. Your information age entrepreneurs. The companies like Intel and Apple are being. Were being eaten by the Paleo Paleolithic age dinosaurs like IBM and Xerox. Those monoliths self perpetuate on the kind of thought that you're putting forth now. You know, you trooping with that kind of idealism and they swallow you the that that kind of money. Does not slow down, it's. It doesn't change its thought fast. What have you to show for what you're trying to convince us you're going to be doing. Besides a couple of us?

Jerry: Festivals I don't agree at all that Apple is being eaten up by IBM. I don't know if you know the concept that's now being talked about all of a sudden out of nowhere in the United States of entrepreneurship. And that, yeah, and that is entrepreneurs who work for big corporations. I think that you.

Speaker 16: I'm acquainted with and I'm part of it.

Jerry: Seen all over America and maybe it's happen in Canada too. I do not know. But all over north, all over America, you have major corporations that are introducing a lot of ideas from both Japan and from the 60s ideas of group meetings of workers, decentralization, networking rather than hierarchy and changes are happening. Inside the corporate structure, that one never expected to. Happen and I think Apple is an example of a company that has a new kind of vision and that's maintained that the whole decision making.

Speaker 16: That is only that's only because they're they're it's beginning to dawn on them, their own mortality, that if they don't start to change their ways of thought just a little bit.

Jerry: They're going to sink. Well, I don't agree with that. I think that Apple is at this moment. Beating IBM IBM just stopped. Production of the PCR junior Apple is is creatively ahead of IBM and I think it's amazing that.

Speaker 16: Apple, but how about IBM? Is IBM's buying up Intel and Xerox owns a chunk of chunk of Apple. Pretty sizable too.

Speaker 9: With that.

Jerry: IBM owns.

Speaker 16: Apple. No, no, I'm not getting like get too deeply into this and distract us. But the point is these these small entrepreneur companies that sprung up in the 70s and are part of this great information age that you're loading are being swallowed by the monoliths. I.

Jerry: Don't believe being swallowed. By the monoliths, and another important point, I want to make is that in the. The 60s and 70s with the industrial. Companies. You had needed a lot of money to start a business. You couldn't go out tomorrow and open up a. Steel mill, that's why. So few businesses were started in the 60s and 70s and the information age. Someone can start a software company, someone can start a division of a computer company and the information age, its information and knowledge. It is the commodity, not so much money, not so much having to have a big factory and you see examples to take. The example of Lotus Software in Boston, where Mitchell Kapoor, who was a 60s active. This who tried to work on his Apple computer created software for now as the number one software company in the country in $18 million company. That's that's the of of a guy without any money, any power who would have and build something because the information age allows that kind of growth.

Speaker 11: And development, I don't know the.

Abbie: One day you can go out and become a blacksmith. You could out become a wheel maker. I mean, you could out become a Baker. I don't. I don't exactly see it all. I mean, I don't see this great optimistic bubbly thing that everything is taking place out there. It always succeeds, etcetera, etcetera. I don't understand all that. I. Don't see it working out. From what I heard about Apple, what they did is they started becoming successful was buy all the second management people they could from IBM anyway.

Jerry: And many firms didn't work out.

Abbie: And so you know, so it's a leaner, meaner, tougher look, big deal. You know, I don't, I don't see anything new with that. I think Jerry is a born again capitalist. He sees great, he sees capitalism works communism, socialism doesn't. I think that's just reinventing the devil's theory. I don't believe those isms are even around anymore. They were invented 200. Years ago, they have no relationship anymore. When somebody calls you a communist in the United States, it means you're a *******. That's all it just means they don't like you. They it doesn't have to mean anything else. When Jerry says that China is now becoming a capitalist country, that India is going up. I mean, it's all nonsense. What's happening in the world is that the world as it becomes. A global village. Is borrowing ideas from each other, and it's moving towards a mixed economy. That's what it's moving towards. Yes, countries that are called communists should have an element of capitalism, and capitalist countries should have an element of communism. The problem when you get down there to the United States is that the United States. As communism for the rich and capitalism for the poor. They're the ones that have to. Compete. So I'm just encouraging the myth, the mix.

Jerry: Well, Abby Hoffman is just pulling out old theories from 1520 years ago. We don't have. I used to say two in the 60s. We don't have communism for the rich. We have competition for the rich and competition for the poor. There is a difference between communism, socialism.

Speaker 9: Hello.

Jerry: Capitalism, and if you don't see the change this China is going through, I'm sorry. I mean, China is going through enormous historic changes, introducing consumerism, introducing upward mobility, introducing the profit motive, introducing competition between factories. It's a historic transformation in, in, in, in China just don't. Wish your way and say Oh well it's. All the isms. Let's look what's going on. China is historically changing, and China has gone from the Yippie to yuppie. It has.

Abbie: That's mind boggling.

Jerry: I'm. I'm glad I boggled your mind. China boggled my mind. I'll tell you, I didn't expect it.

Speaker 11: Next, if I can take three more.

Moderator: I was going to say we're we're virtually out of time. Perhaps if we can keep the questions very much to the point and and. And like 30 seconds is possible and we answer them quickly and if no one else would join the center line, then we can probably finish it, OK. Seconds 30 seconds.

Speaker 17: My question is I guess I'll address it to you, Mr. Hoffman.

Speaker 7: In that.

Speaker 17: War has a lot of inflammatory feelings, and those sort of things go along with it, and you have addressed it. On the outskirts a few times, I'm glad to hear that. You recognize that the Communists will gouge out babies, eyes and and blow up mothers and all that? Sort of. Thing. Too, but my question is to you. The. CBC presented a program here called the Vietnam War. I think it was in 10 series and one of the things that really came out of that program was the inspiration that the opposition to the Vietnam War had in inspiring them to fight harder. You try harder.

Questioner 5: And who's Deb?

Speaker 17: Pardon.

Abbie: Who's them?

Speaker 17: The the the Vietnamese communists. Yes. OK.

Speaker 9: Copies.

Speaker 11: I.

Speaker 17: I I I. I am an American or I was an American. I was in Vietnam and. I didn't agree with it. I agreed worse with the attitude of the American Government in that lives were relevant to political expediency. And but I I didn't see any position or difference in position to the by the by the people that were opposing the war. And that they were costing thousands of American lives as well. By inspiring the the opposition. So I'd like to know what your response is in those feelings.

Moderator: Well, you're leaving.

Abbie: You leave no one else. I mean, you just wrap yourself in the flag and you shape the government and that's it. I mean, when the government goes to war, there's no there's no no room in the democracy to resist that war, because you're only going to be contributing to more. Yes, that's very kind of circular reason. That doesn't leave, you know, my government, my country. Right or wrong, that was a. Ohh till I got hit to the idea of my country, my country's people and land. It's not the government. The government can be wrong as hell and in this case it is wrong. It is wrong. It is lying. It lied through its teeth. We said 700,000 soldiers and was 1964 and Lyndon Johnson was saying I will never send Americans to die in an Asian war. He said it over and over again as many times as Ronald Reagan and saying it today about Central America and then all of a sudden there was an incident in the Gulf of Tonkin where a N Vietnamese PT boat or something that attacked the US. Destroyer. It's it's it's, it's impossible, actually. If you come and think about it, but think about really angry. And and there was a three hour debate and the Senate voted 98 to 2 and gave him all the power once 10 years later we knew it was totally made-up that incident and there were loads of incidents made-up like that. So you can't always.

Speaker 17: With an excuse.

Abbie: Say my government, right or wrong? Because it's wrong, sometimes you stand up and. Say it's wrong. Yes, that's.

Speaker 17: True and and and and people.

Moderator: Excuse me. Thank you.

Speaker 18: I have a question for Jerry Rubin. I I'd like you to explain a little bit more to us why you have such tremendous faith that as soon. As people who are. Just about as old as you get into power in the United States will get will achieve heaven on Earth. First of all, it seems that this is a. The real slander to people who are a little older than that, it's somehow they like pollution and they don't give a damn about poor people or the third world or anything else. And it also denies that that someone who is spending a lot of effort and putting all their attention on making money.

Speaker 19: That there are.

Speaker 18: Other things that have to be put aside if I'd like you to tell us how you're going to react when you're the President of the ACE Paper Company and you're polluting the river and all the other paper companies are polluting rivers as well. And if you put in anti pollution equipment, you'll go bust and you need the money because your Porsche engines and a mass and. And the kids need to go to good schools. And what about when your copper company gets nationalized in in Chile and and there's no compensation? How are? You going to react?

Jerry: The generation that went through the 60s had the 60s as the determining experience. The generation older than them had the depression and World War 2, which created a scarcity feeling, and we're creating industrialism, historical factors that are. Transforming industrial industrialism into the information economy, plus the growing up idealism of this generation as it moves into power, are the factors are gonna make this change. I'm not talking about a heaven. On Earth, I'm talking about reform. I'm talking about basic improvement. I'm talking about having as your goal, transforming certain social problems through a problem solving attitude, because we have different historical experiences that have come upon us. You raised a few other things too, but I. Think I'm moving?

Moderator: To 32nd? Yeah, I think so, yeah. We're going to try and keep the. Answers to 30. Seconds questions to 30 seconds as well please.

Speaker 11: I agree with the guy.

Abbie: OK, the very concept young urban professional rules out non professionals, people that don't live in urban life and people who aren't by definition young. So it's an elitist concept by definition.

Speaker 17: OK.

Jerry: I'm not against the elitism when it's appropriate. We were totally against elitism in the 60s, but you know, spoke like bismuth's plate.

Abbie: Spoken like Prince Charles.

Jerry: That's not the kind of reason I'm talking about.

Speaker 11: Prince Charlie and.

Jerry: I'm talking about the elitism of. Achievement.

Abbie: Oh Horatio Alger.

Questioner #6: I'd like.

Moderator: I'd like to expose him please.

Speaker 8: You. Thank you. I'd like. To direct my remarks to you, Jerry Rubin, I'm not going to criticize your Perry, your lead free Perrier or your Velcro running shoes or Calvin Klein underwear.

Speaker 14: I.

Jerry: Who saw my underwear?

Speaker 8: I don't know.

Jerry: Or is that just a guess it's not?

Abbie: True, he was.

Speaker 8: If they're in your position.

Abbie: Led Nosik in Perrier, Jerry would be a a lot heavier and a lot better because he should drinks help a lot.

Speaker 8: Oh.

Questioner #6: Of this stuff like that.

Jerry: I don't need. I just drink per.

Speaker ?: I just want.

Jerry: Have not been paid by them either to.

Speaker ?: To say.

Jerry: Make. This commercial.

Abbie: Unfortunately, I think.

Speaker 8: We've all heard right and you've said this evening and I found what you were saying rather enticing. And I even found that I I was almost sympathetic to. It sounds like a great idea. We with the ideals we get into power and and we have the.

Speaker 7: Personally.

Speaker 8: Power and we we implement the ideals makes sense. It's a beautiful idea, but I think it's just a it's a pipe dream and the reason I say this is because I think I hear even in your remarks tonight what I'd call the creeping compromise, you talk about, the United States. Should it be isolationist? What are you talking about, getting involved again in Vietnam? What are you, what are you saying? Exactly. And and and what I feel is that with the lure of of wealth that that, that also what what follows is corruption. And I think that.

Speaker ?: Well, I just.

Speaker 8: Want to? I just want to finish this off. I I think that. What we what we're going to see. Is that Canadians are are your your attitude is a fairly colonial one you're talking about, we about Americans. But we're not Americans. We're Canadians. I see Reagan today. Wanting to take Canada and put it into that melting pot or that blender, if you will, called United States and and make us all think the same way and it and it comes out as a rather thin and apathetic soup in the end. And I I don't think that, OK, well, the question is simply this can there be can there be.

Moderator: I'm afraid I'm going to have to insist we're.

Abbie: The blender is a food process, a clean process.

Speaker 8: The question is longer than the answer can be, yeah, probably. Blender is the question though is can there? Can there be such a thing as a as a this large homogeneous yuppie mass that's going to implement these benign ideals? I think that we need critics like Abby Hoffman.

Speaker 11: I hope so. It food.

Abbie: To.

Moderator: We have the question. Yeah, well, the.

Speaker 8: Do you think that we can have such a group without criticism? I mean, is the group going to criticize itself? Who's going to? Criticize the no, Jerry.

Moderator: Yes, or.

Jerry: It's not a homogeneous group at all. It's extremely heterogeneous. Within it are many, many differences. I creeping compromise. the United States should recognize Vietnam and use money and democratic traditions to try to win Vietnam and Nicaragua to its side. Right, that the United States should not be isolationist but should be active in the world but not acted militarily. Protecting dictators and old regimes, but active using the resources that America has to encourage countries, buy them off, give them money to help go to Vietnam and say we want to help you build your country.

Abbie: Now the the reason Ronald Reagan is ticked off about Nicaragua is not because of the Russians are coming. the United States has invaded Nicaragua 17 times in the last 150 years in. In 1912, William Howard Taft, president of the United States, says I envisioned the day. When the stars and Stripes will fly at 3 point. The South Pole, the Panama Canal and the North Pole and the whole hemisphere will be ours. In fact, as by virtue of our moral superiority, UN quote, that was William Howard Taft. They sent in the Marines into Nicaragua. They never needed the Russian excuse. What they fear in Nicaragua is what's happening in Nicaragua. An attempt to have an independent, non aligned, non ideological revolution and take matters in their own hands. Then they tell the corporations how to do business with them. The corporations don't tell them and that's very scary for Ronald Reagan and his. Friends.

Speaker 20: This is a very important debate. It speaks to the ambivalence of a generation. I find my heart going out to Abby, but I must confess a little bit of acquisitiveness. I I've considered entrepreneurship because I've been unemployed for a while, so I would like to know. Jerry, could I have one of your famous? Business cards see me afterwards. Thank you.

Abbie: I like one too.

Speaker 11: I'd like to borrow his American Express card. 1st.

Speaker 7: Maybe.

Speaker 1: I will, yes, a couple of quick questions. Jerry, can I ask how are you getting along with Sadie concerning, but you'd be be so much more effective if you would just cut your hair and dress lace like this is from do it and Abby, what pages money is **** on?

Speaker 11: Oh, it's in there someplace like I it's.

Abbie: All throughout the whole book.

Speaker 11: And he was right. He was right and.

Abbie: Floyd was right about it.

Speaker 21: Jerry sober information hungry and I agree to a certain extent. But what kind of information do you think we want? I don't want National Enquirer information from your entrepreneurial yuppie who has a Mega Millions empire down in Florida. The kind of information I want is why did the CIA print guerrilla tactics manual for Nicaragua? The kind of information I want is locked up in the Pentagon and what assurances do I have that the yuppie president is going to open up the Pentagon? Let me see that info. I think we're going to have to surround the Pentagon like you guys did to get that. Damn. Information.

Jerry: There are no guarantees surrounding the Pentagon is not going to get you that information. Either. Your participants in this process, I'm glad to see that I gave a lot of people tonight something to stretch their minds and challenge their preconceptions, to ask questions about what they think. That was my purpose in being here. Ray and see there's an assumption here that there cannot be a moral government. There cannot be a government that cares about people, cares about change, cares about giving up that kind of information to the public. I think that exists. And that possibility does exist. And I think we'll have to create it together.

Abbie: Well, what's interesting about that manual to me is that was taken almost word for word from a similar manual used in the Phoenix program, which was an attempt which was in the early stages of the Vietnam War. In other words, what Jerry is saying in his opening remarks is it won't happen again because we went through some experience. And it's and. It won't it. I'm saying it's already happening. They're already are U.S. soldiers that have died in Honduras that have died in Nicaragua, their ex CIA agents have been shot down in helicopters in El Salvador and in Nicaragua. Their ex CIA cause they're dead. They're ex. Amex, there's napalm being used in the mountains of El Salvador, and it's not being told to the American public. It's we're going through it again. It's better to be safe. God, against these things than just pie in the sky. It won't happen again.

Jerry: And and policy toward Nicaragua will not change when Reagan's president, we can control it, make sure that. Congress doesn't allow funds for the Contras seated Reagans contained. But when the next president is elected with a different foreign policy, that's when you see the Nicaraguan Government recognize and the change.

Speaker 19: Mr. Hoffman, one of the one of the basic ideas I've gotten from your speech night, is that you believe that the inequalities are undesirable. Like the entrepreneurship creates, the people in Russia are very much equal to each other. Do you believe that you would be able to hold a debate like this?

Abbie: Yes, young man.

Speaker 19: And publicly criticized the government in Russia.

Abbie: Well, I already said that that I would be following mental hospital on jail in Russia. So what? That was always used against me, by the way, when you speak out, they said why don't you go back to Russia or something? I mean, I don't even know how they knew I was from Russia. Actually parents were. I got a good German name. But the real name shaposhnikov. So what is? I don't understand the point you're trying to make. That we can't have this debate in Russia. I don't. I just don't see it working that way. The Russia and the United States work in a symbiotic relationship in the world. The Russians are paranoid and with Ronald Reagan in the White House, they have some reason to be paranoid. OK. Given their given their history, they're a little paranoid. the United States is the richest, wealthiest, most powerful country in the world. You can't have that same belief and also believe that you're behind the Russians. You're ahead. So you got to take the step in terms of the nuclear arms race and the Russians, the Russians have the right to deter. On their own destiny, I believe that 80% of the Russian people, just like 80% of the people in every country in the world, they like their country the way it is. I don't see them all as. Slaves living under the. Yoke of communism. While we of course imply that we're all living on top of capitalism, I think it's all Cold War record.

Speaker 19: OK. Thank you.

Speaker 11: I think.

Jerry: I think what Abby? Hoffman just said, and some of you applauded is kind. Of one of the problems. Very frankly, I think that. Life is freer in the United States than the Soviet Union. I mean, I just don't think there's a question about it. There's no Free Press. Be able to protest the war in Vietnam because we watched on TV every night. You know why the Russian people are protesting Afghanistan? Because the Russian people believe that the Russian troops in Afghanistan are fighting a legitimate democratic battle against the United States and against the West. First, you want to talk about control of information. That's where information is really controlled. It's a lot of changes that need to take place in the United States, but let's face the fact that the Soviet Union is not an alternative.

Abbie: So said it was.

Jerry: Well you should.

Abbie: Be glad was an international for Latin America. Nicaragua was an alternative.

Moderator: We have we have the.

Jerry: I'm glad that the Soviet Union is not controlled Grenada.

Abbie: Asked the question.

Speaker 22: We have we have the last question please. The gentlemen's been waiting a while. Mr. Rubin here in Canada, we do have the third choice. We have the NDP.

Speaker 11: Young man. Yes, Sir.

Speaker 9: Yes.

Speaker 5: Oh.

Speaker 22: If you were a Canadian entrepreneur, do you think that the yuppies could survive under socialist government?

Jerry: Could the yuppies survive under a socialist government? It depends on what kind of socialism we're talking about. There's many different kinds of socialism. Swedish Socialism, Russian socialism. I I don't know what kind of socialism it is. I do think that yuppies are believed very strongly, as I do in in self-reliance and. People sourcing their own power. Creating their own energy and being responsible collectives make bad decisions. Individuals who have a vision and carry them out accomplish more and achieve more. If socialism can accommodate that, yes. If socialism cannot accommodate that, no.

Abbie: OK. Thanks for bringing us to red deer. It's the end of that's the end. If you're interested in going to Nicaragua, you can see me. If you're interested in making $1,000,000, go see Jerry.

Jerry: If you want to [INAUDABLE] see the moderator.

Moderator: Thank. You.

Produced & Directed by: Robert Zorill.

Cameras by: Rod Dorras & Glenn Smith

Switcher: Liz Sutt

Audio by: Pat Smith.

This has been a Shaw Cable - Channel Ten Mobile Production (c) 1985

Journalist: I drove down from Memphis to hear you.

Abbie: Oh, yeah, yeah. All right, I heard.

Journalist: We're a student radio station, can you talk to me for a few minutes.

Abbie: Sure, sure.